Ask the Judges - Week Six
Coaches, parents and athletes email us ( mchicsisters@aol.com ) questions you have always wanted to ask the judges. Each week we will send out a question to our M-CHIC Judges Advisory Panel and we will post their responses. To see a list of the members of our Judges Advisory Panel, click here.
This Week's Question:
"What is your opinion of the request for dividers between judges? Also, maybe computerized voting? There is often question about judges conferring while they are writing down their scores and it can cause questions from the stands and the coaches. What about when coaches see a score changed on their sheet after seeing the judges talking?"
Answers from the Judges:
Judge #1:
We are officials and officials in other sports confer regarding calls. I am not in favor of dividers. Computerized voting is a possibility. I think coaches need to explain to the team members, family members and fans that judges confer if they have a question such as do they the team have enough difficulty and variety to receive a 10 in Difficulty and Variety, another discussion is did you see that girl jump I didn’t think she jumped, did 3 girls crash on the back tuck? When judges confer it is for the benefit of the team we want to err on the side of the kids. We do not want to take points away if the team deserves the points. Coaches that see a change on the score sheet hopefully it is a better score, the judge has initialed the correct score, and put error by the previously entered score.
Judge #2:
As a judge I wouldn't mind a divider however, keep in mind I feel there are times when we need to talk! First off I like to confer on 2 pt falls, 2pt gymnastic crashes, We are also human and sometime miss things in that case I like to find out what went on from my other judges, I know personally I try to judge in ink rather then pencil so scores are more permanent without changing. however sometimes I realize I put a score in the wrong box or maybe thought about a certain area after the fact and realized my score needed tome changed. I guess a divider would have it's pros and cons but a well trained or veteran judge shouldn't need it.
Judge #3:
Scores should be individual and unique for that judge high or low. If it will make the coaches and fans feel better, I do not think that judges would mind the separation. Just remember that the safety officials must talk with each other and need panel input on certain penalty calls.
Judge #4:
Conferring between/among officials is part of judging. It happens in basketball, football, gymnastics, and many other sports and most often leads to more accurate scoring. As for altered/erased scores, I have often found that I have circled a score for voice on the mobility line, and when I realize my mistake, I erase my marks and circle new ones. The same is true for skills or jumps; when a mistake is made in writing down the scores or they're not in the right order, that has to be corrected, and in the rush to get done, this kind of mistake is very often made. As for safety judges, they only have one sheet; it is required that they confer and agree on an outcome. To infer that communication means undue influence or unethical behavior is a foolish assumption.
Judge #5:
1. ERASURES
I often compare judging competitive cheer to taking timed exam: (1) Prior to the meet I prepare by studying the manual. (2) Once inside the judges’ room at the meet I organize scoresheets and begin the first part of the exam—rapidly reviewing Round 3 description sheets for VARIETY, DIFFICULTY, and CHOREOGRAPHY points. More Round 3 sheets these days are completed very well. Many contain errors, however, and I am expected to find every one. (3) From there I move on to the second part of the exam, at the judges table, where I watch, take notes, and evaluate often in excess of 30 cheers per competition. After each one I must answer the question: How well did the team perform? (4) Finally, within what feels like mere seconds, I must formulate and record all my answers (the scores). It’s not that easy. To be completely honest, I sometimes make mistakes. I record the score in the wrong category. This necessitates erasing the score and putting it in the correct box. Sometimes, I write the scores so quickly that one may look really sloppy. I erase it and record the exact same number--more legibly. As a matter of practice, I always review every score before turning in my scoresheet. There are times, during that final check, that I decide to change a score. For example, the team is between two scores—not quite an 8.5 but better than an 8—and I change the score up or down based upon a final impression of something that stands out in my mind. This does not happen often. I do not or will not change my scores based upon other judges’ scores, and I do not get the sense that they change their scores based upon mine. Our mantra is, “YOU have to judge what YOU see.” I make it a point to remain at the judges’ table following competitions to answer questions from the coaches—as long as they are asked in a professional manner. I can explain or justify any of my scores. My scores should not be a mystery to the coaches—nor do they need to be exactly the same as those of the judges around me. We see things differently, and we judge differently. Just because we erase does not mean we are copying each other.
2. TALKING BETWEEN JUDGES
There are cases when talking between/amongst the judges is necessary--the vast majority of times it is to address a problem. For instance, because of falls the team may have dropped from a 20 to a 19 in their DIFFICULTY score. I won’t go lower until I verify with another judge that I have not made a mistake. Discussion may also take place regarding CHOREOGRAPHY points. For example, I won’t take the points away until I confirm with another judge that there were not enough one-legged extensions in the routine. I’ve had this exact situation occur at two different state finals. It is unfortunate that the team got to that point in the season without knowledge of their error. I’m pretty sure those coaches would have appreciated the judges discussing the matter at earlier competitions and informing them of the discrepancy. Instead, assumptions were made and the teams got the bad news at finals. It just makes sense to make confirmation before taking points away or making a mistake that could needlessly cost a team. The other score that may be shared is EXECUTION. In years past it was thought that this score should be the same for all judges. Not any longer. We have to judge what we see. Some judges judge certain things tougher—often it is tumbling, but it may be sponges or double twists that do not make two complete revolutions. What each judge deducts for these is based upon their understanding of the instructions in the manual. Teams and coaches deserve accurate judging, and sometimes this requires confirmation with other judges. That said, if the routine goes without a problem there should be no discussion.
3. COMPUTER TABULATIONS
I am all for computer tabulations because the practice could potentially speed up competitions following Round 2 and especially after Round 3. The transition may be a little complicated/slower at first, but teams, fans, and judges don’t appreciate the long delay in waiting for scores to be tabulated. The excitement of the competition is often lost by the time the scores are read. It would be better to announce them while everyone is still into the meet.
Hope this helps!
Judge #6:
Dividers between the judges and and judges talking kind of go together--As with everything, there is good and bad to both. Yes, the dividers would cut down the talking between the judges. But, would you not want the judges to talk at all? In all rounds, some things go very fast. Each judge tries to give all benefit of the doubt to the teams on the floor. So, if a judge happens to think they have missed something and they want to double check with another judge, then the dividers would hinder that process, and therefore they would possible be miscored. Yes, the judge should have seen every little thing, but is that possible at all times? Nobody is perfect. So this may have been an instance when the judges had been talking and the crowd questions the judges for this, but the judges were doing it for the best, or for the most correct score. And as for changing scores on the score sheet, what if the judge simply 'accidentally' marked the incorrect score the first time. Maybe she just transposed numbers from her own scoring sheet, to the MHSAA sheet-- I know I have done that. It wasn't a change due to talking to another judge. Also, the crowd and coaches have no idea what the judges are even talking about....I know it is sometimes stupid...but judges can be marking their sheets and talking about little things that have nothing to do with cheerleading...yes, maybe it is inappropriate, but we are human and we are women and we like to talk. On a more serious note.....I can go either way as a judge who confers with the other judges or I could not talk at all. Some judges like to talk more, and some like to compare more. And sometimes that is all it is....comparing....I get asked what score I gave that Toe Touch....and I would say, "Gee, I thought it was a 8.5." The other judge says, "I had it as a 7.5." And nothing is changed, we just told each other our scores and that is it. No scores were changed at all. Granted, there probably are some newer judges out there, or maybe more impressionable judges and they would have changed their score, and that would be wrong. A judge should stick with their score. But if I were to ask if in Round 1, did another judge get enough difficulty and variety to give the team a 10, because I only got a 9, why not compare and make sure I didn't miss anything and make sure the team doesn't deserve a 10??
Computerized scoring would be very interesting to see implemented and I would be all for trying new things. There would be good and bad for that, too, some judges may not be comfortable with computers, and be scared to use them, and there is more room to have problems with computers not working. Computers are a great thing....when they are WORKING!! What happens when one crashes in the middlle of a competition? My pencil and paper is never going to crash. There would probably be less room for error with a computer, though, as in with the addition of scores and that.
Hope this helps.
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